The system is all underpinned by private property, as pointed out by Pierre Joseph Proudhon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre-Joseph_Proudhon#Mutualism Without private property, there can be no rent and profit becomes a reward for work. Trade unions are simply a product of (reaction to) the power of the property owners.

I would also like to live in a world without private property. But I think some ideas of liberalism are interesting. We don't live in a liberal system but in a system where the states run for big firms and banks.

Now we can defend the idea that there is commons. This idea is easy to defend (contrary to the idea that private property is evil, that makes people to see you as a old style communist).

My english is weak, sorry for likely mistakes.

I want to gather all good wills, and I see a lot of people rejecting this system but using differents words and differents ideologies. If we want to change some things we have to find a small common denominator.

Je trouve l'expression "capitalisme de connivence" franchement mauvaise. Utiliser "ploutocratie" me semble approprié dans ce contexte.

Ploutocratie c'est le pouvoir des riches. Charles Gave s'attaque aux mauvaises règles du capitalisme, marquée par la connivence, qui faussent le marché, qui n'est plus libéral.

I think Amenuel is right to distinguish between different types of capitalism, crony capitalism is a type of monopoly capitalism, which is always worse than a more perfect market. But what I don't like about Gave's critique is that it seems to place all the blame on the state. But if we simply removed the state, without directly addressing the private ownership of land and of the means of production, we will still have a plutocracy. In fact, it would probably be worse for ordinary people. Maybe he means the state can be recaptured by the people, but this also is difficult because we do live in a plutocracy. Also, the state creates its own bureaucratic class of administrators who pursue their own interests. I do not think we can avoid the problem of private property.

Ameneul, there is no need to apologise for you English, it is way better than my French, I'm afraid. I am currently using Google translate to read your posts, so I apologise if I have misunderstood some things.

The word "capitalism" doesn't have a precise and consensual definition, trying to "distinguish between different types of capitalism" won't make it any better. On the other hand "plutocracy" has a clear meaning, and seems to be a good fit for what Gave is criticizing.

For me capitalism has a very clear meaning, which is more precise than plutocracy. Wealth can be amassed in different ways, but the capitalist amasses wealth through profit, either from trade, rent or loan interest. It is also possible to distinguish different types of capitalist, such as manufacturers, landowners, financiers, each class having slightly different interests due to the source of their wealth and power.

It doesn't matter if you have a precise definition for it. The important thing is that it's not consensual, so when you use the word "capitalism" in a discussion the others often think something else than what you meant. That's why I don't use words like "capitalism" and "socialism".

I agree with you John about Charles Gave's stupid hate of state. And about the different kinds of capitalism. I consider the word plutocracy describes well who detain the power (those who detain money, real estate, firms and lands control also the government). But I found the word capitalism economically more relevant.

Dans le "système" en France il existe la Nef. Si vous avez un compte en banque et qu'il n'est pas à la Nef : seriez-vous d'accord pour le clore et en ouvrir un à la Nef ? (avec le crédit coopératif en attendant que la Nef propose des compte à vue) :
http://www.agefi.fr/articles/la-nef-veut-devenir-une-banque-ethique-et-autonome-1315628.html

Nice one, Loelo. I switched to a current account with the Co-op Bank in UK https://www.co-operativebank.co.uk/ It's had some problems recently, but is still a good choice for ethical banking. I'd be happy to switch again to join a proper banking co-op with a current account (which the Co-op Bank is not, long story).

Changaco, yes, plutocracy seems like a very useful word for identifying the ruling class. But when we come to analysing how they accumulate their power, I think we still need to think about the different kinds of capitalism. Yes, this will lead to arguments about what capitalism actually is and whether its a 'good thing' or a 'bad thing', but I think these arguments are necessary to have if we are to understand the society we live in. In the same way, it's difficult to avoid the word socialism, when we start to discuss how things may be made better.

Loelo. Je commence à gagner ma vie et à me poser la question du placement de mes économies. Il faut encore que je réfléchisse avant de peut-être changer de banque.