Hola Tangerina.

Me parece desafortunada la frase ¿por qué? Debido a que la escena antifascista francesa encubre a ; capitalistas, reaccionarios y a la extrema derecha.

Hace poco, algunas manifestaciones "antifascistas" pro-Palestina degeneraron en acciones de odio contra la comunidad judia.

La historia demuestra que el antifascismo fortalece al sistema de dominación.

Hoy más que nunca hay que ser antiautoritarias, antiracistas, anticapitalistas y antiestatistas. En concreto anarquistas. Y más si se considera que algunos de los víctimas de Charlie Hebdo fueron libertarios, colaboradores de la prensa anarquista (Le Monde Libertaire).

Disculpa que escriba en español, si quieres puedes responder en portugués.

Je suis anarchiste

the most theoretical radical left antifacsist groups in germany are "pro-zionistic" and there had been an anarchist wing in the zionism, so i think "antifascist" is not the wrong term in that case ;)

hola tlapil! gracias. estoy de acuerdo que la causa “antifascista” tiene muchos problemas y apropiaciones reversas, y que no es sinónimo del anarquismo o socialismo libertario. pero hay que considerar que esta discusión de charlie hebdo incluye muchísimas personas ahora y es mucho mas ancha que el anarquismo, así tenemos que encontrar un punto común entre anarquistas y no-anarquistas/socialistas puesto que la discusión todavía existe y los fachos y la derecha en general buscan darle un significado que le sea favorable. yo pienso que el momento muestra que no podemos más abstenernos de hablar de la ascensión del clerofascismo salafista, pero es posible subvertir el slogan original (que es muy peligroso porque tiene tonos liberales emotivos y casi euro-nacionalistas) y al mismo tiempo transformá-lo en una acción hostil hasta la propaganda islamofóbica de los nazifascistas. la identidad antifascista a mi me parece el punto de unión en contra ambas las fuerzas, reaccionarias y neoliberales, en este caso específico.

i feel discriminated ;)

lol. i felt like a good opportunity to practice my poor spanish skills.

hey, dont mind, practice and learn ;)

/me still feels discrimanted :D

@tange rina Desafortunadamente la unidad antifascista impulsará al izquierdismo autoritario, un ejemplo la izquierda anti-alemana sionista, que aquí mismo se manifiesta.

???? the authoriteian leftist is still anti-imperialistic, palestine supporting and islamism-excusing

pero no creo que nuestra interferencia en la discusión publica en el caso "charlie" tiene como objetivo la aproximación de la gran mayoría de estas personas a los ideales de la izquierda. creo que aquí hay una necesidad de intervención hasta desarticular el potencial reaccionario y derechista del evento y solo. la lucha social, las otras disputas mucho mas importantes y centrales, donde ponemos nuestras energías y hablamos abiertamente de nuestras propuestas anarquistas y antagonismos a los otros sistemas, en esas disputas sí lo dejamos claro los problemas de las muchas corrientes de la izquierda, incluso la anti-alemana (pero en este caso no la pienso como una corriente autoritaria).

It's always nice to know that I can see nutcases on both sides of the political spectrum - the so-called "Anti-Semites" (sadly Zionophobe is not a word), and the so-called "Islamaphobes". It's like you can both cite one religious/racial group to blame for most of the world's problems, like it's a vast conspiracy or something.

With that much noise spinning around the echo chamber, it causes one to wonder whether there's any truth in either extreme. I'd love to see murdeRED dreams go up against ∇ sense ∇. Both of your worldviews are based on the same assumption that a religious conspiracy is afoot. It's just that you blame opposite ends of the spectrum.

Let the monkeys fling poo at one another!

@murder, marxism is understood as authoritarian leftism in latin america since there were no relevant autonomist or non-leninst experiment around here. one of the main problem with anti-deutsche (besides the bizarre flags of usa and israel), as i see it, it's that it doesn't even declare itself as post-zionist or something, but as PRO-zionism, and most people are not interested in what zionism meant in 1930 (ethnic nationalist self-determination movement in an era of international persecution) but its current celebration/usage despite all that happened since then, which is seem basically as a synonym for what was called "revisionist zionism".

oh, interesting, so i hallucinate a muslim world conspiracy which is hidden ruling the world and invented pronography, communism, feminism and liberalism? sean i see islamism as a political ideologie and yes, zionism is a political ideology 2, but could it be that there some little differences? in hstory, how he ideology evolved, the goals of these ideas.

btw and so obvious antisemite (ey, come on, holocaust-denial?) gets ignored very quick, but please could u specify what the antisemites and people which are critzing islamism (and islam, because all religions are bullshit) have in common? hey let me guess, only the middle is right, right?

btw 2 sad that u dont understand german, the last 3-4 weeks the most german antifascists (includning me) had 2 deal with an racist movement which is patriotic europeangs against the islamic takeover of the okzident, guess what i did :P

if the stern gang would be in charge ....... no, beter not think about that, i am afraid i would have 2 say something which doesnt sound nice, in any case, there wouldnt be a 20% non-jewish population in israel with full citizens rights. rühle, the frankfurter school, mackey, luxemburg, panekoek, they all should become more popular in latin amerika ;)

"postzionism" would be possible, when israel would become accepted as a normal state, with safe borders, without the realistic thread of termination, but then a radical leftist support wouldnt be needed anymore 2

@Sean tilly a debate would be nice, but slurs and suggestions just sux, right?

@sean, murdered is not a islamophobe, i'm sure of that. i do think in this palestine-israel stuff he looks like an israeli nationalist and usually this is revolting, but he is very reasonable and i agree with him in several other issues.

senses is another story. completely different. he spread not only the usual pathetic illuminati-reptilian-whatever bullshit, but also hitler apologies, holocaust denial and everything that puts him in the circle of those naziasporans pretending to be nice guys posting cute cat videos inbetween their political preaching. he's not "prejudiced", he is a nazi.

i would not have a problem 2 be islamophobe, nor would i have a problem 2 be christianophobe and even with judeophobe, hinduphobe and buddhaphobe, as long it is onyl about religion, the problem is, that islam became a proxy 4 many racists and it could happen that i say/write/post something racist, because i am not perfect, the same like it can happen that i post something sexistic or something which is wrong in another way, if something like that happens, i appreciate, if people tell me where i am wrong

and i see a lot of thinks very different then israelian nationalists/right wingers, i only agree often with their view on the israelian security situation, sadly they are often right with that

@tange No coincidimos, la izquierda antialemana es por principio autoritaria, pues justifica el terrorismo del estado israelita.

Obrigado

@tlapil if u can read english http://atthebackofthehill.blogspot.de/2008/11/anarcho-zionism.html

even when thats not what leftist pro-zionism is about, it could make u think a bit about ur orthodox anti-zionism and the ignorance about antisemitism from "holy anarchists" like proudhon and bakunin

oh, interesting, so i hallucinate a muslim world conspiracy which is hidden ruling the world and invented pronography, communism, feminism and liberalism?

Gonna stop you right there for a second. While pornography has obvious problems, what's so bad about communism, feminism, or liberalism? I myself identify as a feminist, and while second-wave feminism is kind of bad, the overall belief that people from all walks of life should be treated decently does not seem like the Islamic ideal that you are rallying against. Your argument doesn't make sense there.

Secondly, do you have any sources to back up that communism, feminism and liberalism are uniquely Muslim inventions? Why are they bad?

My problem with Islamaphobia is that I see it to be just as reactionary as Antisemitism. It points a finger at one group of people and declares that their entire philosophical ideology is some destructive, horrible thing that will doom humanity. Usually, some idea of a mass conspiracy is involved.

For me, such arguments end up sounding a lot like "If only there were less Muslim/Jewish people in the world!". But being Muslim isn't that different from being Jewish - they stem from the same Abrahamic belief system, and mostly merge together a religion with a cultural identity.

Many Muslims will point to the concept of Great Jihad vs. Lesser Jihad. True, the core of their religion wants converts, but that's most religions, and Greater Jihad largely focuses on non-violent means of evangelism.

@murder, i know man, i understand your point it's just i disagree with all this. also, luxemburg institute here where i live is closely related to the militants of the old brazilian zionist socialist youth movement, but those people since a long time have criticized israel policies and now reject the positive usage of the word zionism...

@sean, i think you misunderstood him. he's pointing out with some sarcasm that contrary to antisemitism, that states that jews inventend pornography, communism, feminism, etc, he is not making these accusations of the existence of a muslim conspiracy behind things progressive, left wing, etc...

the fact is that islamophobes, who always are reactionaries and hate all progressive or "lefty" issues, do believe in these conspiracies exactly as antisemites... in fact they tend to be both, but emphasizes one over other according to the convenience of the context.

Ah, but that's the wonder of the internet. Sarcasm is not always understood.

"slurs and suggestions just sux, right?"

Why does this remember me on murdered ??

obviously not only sarcasm and there is no "islamophobia", it s just a proxy 4 "good ol' racism", simple as that

I would had reshared this image, but I don't want the screaming about a so-called antifascist scene or something like that (is something like feminism? an amputation of a bigger fight?).

Sorry for bad english.